Interview
with Indian theologians and activists
Fr.
Sundar Raj Lourduswamy is the executive Secretary of the scheduled
castes and tribes commission of the catholic bishops' conference of
India (CBCI)
Q.
could you tell us something about the work SC/ST commission of the
CBCI?
A: The
CBCI has a total of thirteen commissions and ours is one of them. Our
commission was setup in 1985 to carry on the struggle for equal
rights for Dalit Christians who are deprived of their constitutional
rights, because the rights such as reservation in government service
etc. that are available to other dalits have not been extended to
Dalit Christians. We have not as yet succeeded in getting this done,
although we have also made a critical analysis of the mission of the
church in the development of the SCs and STs and have advocated that
they be given the utmost priority and allowed full participation in
the Indian Church , which, too, has been denied to them. As part of
our work , we organize regular animation camps and seminars to help
Dalits become more aware of their rights and to enable other
Christians to appreciate the value of equality and social justice.
Q. Why
is it that the rights available to other Dalits have not been
extended to Dalit Christians ?
A:
That is the question that we, too are asking. If the government is
really committed to secularism and upholding constitutional values
and to helping all socially and economically marginalized groups, the
rights given to other Dalits ought to be made available to Dalit
Christians as well, so that all Dalits are treated equally by the
state. So far reservation rights have been given only to Hindhu, Sikh
and Bhuddist Dalits and have been denied to Muslims and Christians of
Dalit origin. This discrimination on the basis of religion is totally
un-constitutional.
Q. But
surely the Indian Church, too, has failed to provide equality to it's
Dalit members even though they form the vast majority of the Catholic
population in India?
You
are quite right. I think the Church wanted to show the world that it
was more secular than the government, so all admissions to its
schools and colleges, for instance, were based on merit. When merit
is the basis for admissions how many poor or Dalit children can you
expect to enter any of the church's institutions? I can, without
any hesitation say that the big educational institutions that we
Catholics run have failed to do much for the development of the
Dalits, including the Dalit Christians. Instead of educating their
own Dalit Christian children, these institutions have been catering
to the upper caste elites.
Q. Is
there any opposition to this from within the Chruch now?
A. The
voices of dissent are growing louder and louder by the day. The
struggle has now entered even the Church, where Dalits are demanding
greater equality in all decision-making bodies, as well as, of course
as in our educational institutions. On the other hand, there arealso
powerful voices within the church that are opposed to Dalit demands
for equality. These voices represent the interest of the elite. They
want the Dalit Christian struggle be silenced, but, as I see it, that
struggle is bound to become more strident, not only in the church,
and in the Christian community as a whole , but among all other
religious groups as well. Because of the growing awareness of the
rights that have been denied to the Dalits, their voices are bound
tobe increasingly heard within the Church, and both the Protestant
and Catholic churches are now being forced to issue statements and
make action plans for the Dalits, though how long these plans will
take to be implemented I frankly have no idea. One sign of the change
that is coming about is that although the Catholic schools have not
as yet, introduced a policy of reservations for Dalit children, they
are admitting increasing numbers of them now.
Q.
Are the Pope and other Vatican authorities aware of the plight of the
Dalit Christians?
A. I
think the Pope is well aware of the situation and has condemned the
continuing marginalization of the Dalits within the Church. Various
Indian Church statements also deplore the condition, and the Church
has confessed that it has failed to eradicate casteism. The churches
are simply condemning, but this is largely lip-service, limited to
issuing statements or Sunday morning speeches. They are doing very
little about it in terms of concrete action, I am afraid. The time
for talking is over. We need solid steps, real action. I feel that as
long as casteism holds sway in the wider society the Church and the
Christian community cannot remain immune from it's contagion
because the Christians remain in close relation with the wider
society. Hence, we feel that there is an urgent need to oppose
casteism both within the Church as well as in society at large and
for this we must collaborate with all progressive forces, Christians
as well as other, who share a similar concern.
Q. How
would you define Dalit theology?
A.
Theology is the study of God based on the lifestyle of the people.
Dalit theology, therefore would be the study of God in the context of
the history of the Dalit communities in India. The history of the
Dalits is one of a series of oppression and liberation. We see God
as intervening in history in order to liberate the oppressed from all
sources of oppression, be it economic, political, social, cultural or
religious. Since in Indian the most oppressed people are the Dalits,
we see God as intervening on their behalf. This has happened in many
ways. This is happening even today and shall happen in the future as
well.
Q.
Does Dalit liberation theology have any message for non-Dalits as
well?
A.
Yes., indeed it has. It has a lesson for all of us. It tells us that
our duty is to side with Dalits and help them in whichever way we can
in their struggle for liberation, in order for us to fully express
our own humanity and our love and devotion to God. As we see it, the
life after death depends on our works of liberation and liberative
solidarity with the oppressed in this world. As Jesus says, 'Whatever
you give to the least of your brethren, you have given me'. That is
true religion and true worship. The whole of human history as
depicted in the Bible is a chain of events for the liberation of the
oppressed. True spirituality can be expressed only through works of
liberation. In this way, liberation theology has an important message
for both the oppressed and the oppressors, and is a source of hope
for a better future on earth for those who have been crushed by the
chains of oppression for centuries.
Q.Does
Dalit Christian theology see any validity in other religions other
than Christianity as well?
A. We
believe that God's liberative intervention has taken place and is
taking place in all religions. For instance, Islam, wit hits stress
on helping the poor through charity, fasting,and even taking up arms
on behalf of the oppressed. Or some Bhakti traditions, with their
critique of caste. All these traditions express the liberative
impulse in different ways. This liberation was not just spiritual,
but social and economic well. The essence of all true religions is
thus not rituals or theology but the struggle of liberation of the
oppressed. Rituals are a means for this, not and end in themselves.
Hence, the five pillars of Islam including fasting, so that one can
learn to understand the hunger that the poor experience, and zakat or
the poor-due, which is given to the needy. In other words, your
worship needs to be expressed through liberative action, by loving
and sharing with others. If you do not do this of what use are your
prayers? Then it becomes sheer hypocrisy. As Jesus says in the Bible
if you say that you love your Father in heaven but you do not love
your brother you are a hypocrite. But in order to help others, you
need to transform yourself, and for that you need prayers and
worship. So, as I said rituals are a means, while help in liberation
is an end. If you make means an end in itself your worship is reduced
to empty ritualism.
Q. How
does Dalit liberation theology view dominant modes of inter-religious
dialogue?
Generally
in inter-religious dialogue efforts, people from different religious
traditions come together, talk about their religions and, at most say
a common prayer togetherand then disperse. It has become a fashion
these days to gather together religious leaders from different
communities to talk to each other. But most of these leaders are
already committed to the inter-religious dialogue project, so it is
like preaching to the already convinced. I am not saying that his
should not be done at all, but the point that I want to make is that
the coming together of a few religious leaders to pray for communal
harmony will not create harmony among the masses. There is yet
another dimension of the inter-religious dialogue that is now being
given increasing attention, as indeed it should. This is at the level
of social action, with people from different faiths coming together
for the liberation of the oppressed, each seeing their participation
in this project as a religious duty and explaining and elaborating on
this in religious terms.
Inter-religious
dialogue work must also move out of the narrow circle of theologians,
to include journalists, politicians, bureaucrats, students and
others, all coming to dialogue about and work for social justice,
each coming with his or her own religious and spiritual resources for
this work. Take up the issue of social justice and liberation first
and then you can bring religion into all this. What I am advocating
is a radical change in the nature, content and methodology of
inter-religious dialogue. We must look beyond the seminar rooms in
big cities and take this work in the villages as well.
Non-governmental organizations working at the grass-roots level with
marginalized groups can play a significant role in this regard. Till
now, their work has largely been restricted to relief and economic
development, but they must also take up the issue of social justice
and link it up with the issue of communal harmony. Although many
NGO's are working with people of different castes and faiths, their
platform have till now, not generally been used for the promotion of
communal harmony and inter-faith dialogue. This needs to change.
Q. How
does the Catholic Church view the question of inter-religious
dialogue?
A. In
various statements of the Vatican and lower-level Church authorities
inter-religious dialogue is given the utmost priority, but much of
this, unfortunately, remains limited to the intellectual level, to
the narrow domain of theologians.
Q.
Some say that the Catholic Church uses inter-religious dialogue
simply as another means of conversion. What would you say?
A: As
I see it the motive behind inter-religious dialogue should not be to
win others to your religion or to increase your numbers but only to
share with others what good there is in your religion for the
advancement of certain basic values and goals, the most important
thing being the liberation of the oppressed.
Madhu
Prasad teaches philosophy at Delhi University. She is an active
member of SAHMAT, a trust working for inter-religious dialogue,
communal harmony and secularism, based in Delhi.
Q. How
did you get involved in the work of SAHMAT?
A. I
have been associated with SAHMAT right since it's inception. It
was setup soon after Safdar Hashmi, noted trade unionist and social
activist was murdered in 1989. As you might know, he was killed while
staging a street play for factory workers at Sahibabad, near Delhi.
Safdar was a close friend, and we were involved in the same movement.
He was really a beacon of light whose work and sacrifices inspired us
to setup SAHMAT. Following his murder we, a group of individuals who
were closely involved with him in the same sort of work, decided to
form SAHMAT to carry on his mission.
Q. Can
you tell us something about Safdar Hashmi's work?
A.
Safdar was mainly involved in cultural activism. He set up Jan Natya
Manch, a people's street theatre group, with the idea that it
should form the nucleus of a movement for promoting a popular secular
culture. In 1988 the Vishwa Hindu Parishad organized what it called
the Ekatmata Yajna all over the country, spewing venom against
Muslims, and we felt very concerned about this. So, Safdar and his
co-workers began to make efforts to mobilise people against
communalism. We setup a committee for communal harmony, through which
we tried to mobilise people from all walks of life, particularly
cultural activists, artistes and people who were not necessarily
involved in party politics but felt strongly about the rise of
communalism. Safdar played a central role in this committee.
Q.
What did this committee do?
The
first thing we did was to organize a march for communal harmony
through the streets of Old Delhi. There must have been 25,000
participants, including students and women activists, and we got a
very enthusiastic response from the people. Then, we organized and
auction of works of art to collect funds for our activities. In the
very first auction we earned more than two lakh rupees, which was a
very large sum in those days. We also went about various localities
in Delhi collecting money for our work. We got a lot of support from
the people. Nobody told us to go away as they would if we were to go
to them today to ask for contributions for promoting communal
harmony. And then the Jan Natya Manch performed a number of street
plays on communalism, which were very well appreciated. Safdar would
take the group to perform in colleges, working class areas,
government employees' colonies and to factory gates.
Q.
What are the main activities of SAHMAT today?
A. Our
major emphasis is on cultural work for promoting communal harmony and
fighting against religious fundamentalism. We have brought out
numerous cassettes and publications and also have a regular Hindi
monthly. We have been organizing a major cultural festival on 1st
of January every year, the day Safdar was murdered, at which
musicians, dancers, painters and street theatre groups perform, all
for the cause of communal harmony. And what is particularly
remarkable about this is that all those who perform at our concerts
do so free of cost, simply for the sake of the cause.
In the
wake of the destruction of the Babri Masjid in1992, we organized a
mobile exhibition of photographs and pictures explaining the actual
history of Ayodhya, which was taken all over the country to counter
the claims of the Hindutvawadis. On the 15th of August
1993 we went to Ayodhya and held a concert for communal harmony on
the banks of the Saryu river, which we called Muktnad or ‘The Cound
of Freedom'. I remember meeting a Hindu woman from Ayodhya at the
concert who told me, Muktnad ne hame mukt kar diya, nahi to nal kahan
lagega, yah bhi VHP wale decide karte the [‘The Muktnad has set us
free, otherwise for so small a matter as where the corporation tap
should be installed it was the Vishwa Hindu Parishad people who would
decide']
One of
our most memorable concerts was the Anhad Garje Bhakti-Sufi musical
festival that we organized less than a month after the destruction of
the Babri Masjid. This concert brought together artistes from India,
Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh. It was a resounding success and
we took the concert to eight or nine cities all over the country. The
basic message of the concert was that mystics of all religions have
pointed to the same Ultimate Truth. That is true religion and
spirituality, not the sort of relioun that the Hindutva lobby or the
Taliban are peddling today.
Q. How
do you think that our Sufi and Bhakti traditions can be used to
counter communalism?
A. I
don't know if the word ‘use' is really appropriate. The Sufi
andBhakti traditions are themselves so deeply entrenched in the minds
of our people that an instrumentalist use of these traditions is
perhaps unnecessary. These traditions insofar as they are so open and
deeply humanistic, directly challenge the claims of the Hindutva
lobby or other communal forces. Moreover, they are such and integral
part of our cultural heritage that they are easily accessible and
understood. You don't have to bring in something from outside and
impose it on the people. I mean, I don't have to force Brecht down
their thoughts to promote humanism, because we have this very rich
heritage to draw upon for the same purpose. Now, we at SAHMAT have
bee ntrying to promote this Sufi-Bhakti tradition because we see it
as a rich resource for countering the claims of those who use
religion for sinister ends. But ours is not an instrumental use of
these traditions. Rather, we are simply trying to give them space to
articulate their voices.
Q. But
is it not the case that with the rise of religious militancy, these
traditions are now fast dying out?
A. I
don't think so. We urban intellectuals may have forgotten these
traditions, but they are still very much alive among people. They
continue to play a very crucial role in promoting communal harmony .
Who can say that Bhullel Shah is only amuslim or Pakistani mystic? He
belongs to all Punjabis- Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus and others. The same
can be said of Kabir, Farid, Nanak and so many others. As I see it,
these traditions, which are still the basis of a vibrant popular
culture, can play a very important role in challenging and combating
those who are emploting religion for their own vested interests.
Santhianathan
Clarke is Associate Professor at the United Theological College,
Bangalore, one of the leading Christian seminaries in India. His book
on Dalit Christian Liberation theology has recently been published by
Oxford University Press.
Q. How
did you get interested in Dalit Christian theology?
A. I
was born in an urban middle-class family and I did not have much
knowledge of Indian rural society. When I was doing my degree in
social work I got exposed to rural life and had an opportunity to
study it in a somewhat systematic manner. That set me thinking as to
how I could get involved in any form of social transformation. By
then I had already decided that I would like to serve the Church.
Then, I went on to do my Master's degree, and for my dissertation I
studied the socio-economic conditions of sweepers in the Madras
Corporation.
After
that I joined the United Theological College, Bangalore which is one
of the leading Christian seminaries in India. At that time we had
started a course in non-Christian religions. The Hinduism that was
taught here as in other Christian seminaries, was essentially the
classical, textual, Brahminic expression of Hinduism. But we had a
person teaching here called A.P.Nirmal, who was talking about
alternate expressions of Indian religions, about Dalit theology. And
I, for one, was fascinated with this new development that was just
then beginning to emerge. Between 1984 and 1987 I lived in a small
village in the Chingulpet district of Tamil Nadu, where I served as
a priest to fourteen village congregations, 99% of who were Dalits.
That was when I really got involved in working with Dalit groups,
organizing agricultural labourers, providing relief during floods and
so on. Those three years of working with rural Dalits at a
face-to-face, everyday level were really instrumental in developing
my interest in Dalit issues, including Dalit theology. Later, I went
to the USA for my doctoral studies in religion. There was a lot of
openness there regarding popular religion, and so that's how I
decided to study Dalit religion and liberation theology.
Q. In
the course of your study what did you discover?
A. To
put it very briefly , I found that there is a solid basis to argue
that DAlit religion is not the same as Hindu religion, as Hindutva
ideologues would insist, although it is interactive with it. On the
other hand some see Dalit religion as a complete counter culture or
counter-religion neatly divided from Hinduism, but that's not how I
see it. In my view there is a symbolic interaction between the two
forms that comes about in such a way that the subjectivity of the
Dalits is written into their symbolic world-view. Most of my work
lifts up the resistive and constructive elements of Dalit religion,
but not simply as either a counter to Brahminic Hinduism or its other
face.
Q. How
does Dalit theology differ from liberation theology as it has
developed in South America?
A.
Dalit Christian theology actually developed in the wake of the
emergence of liberation theology in South America and black theology
in the USA. All these theologies are a counter to the colonialist,
western Christian theology, which is highly individualistic and does
not take history especially that part of the oppressed, seriously.
But what marks Dalit Christian theology out is the centrality it
gives the question of caste and caste oppression. This should be seen
in the light of the fact that leadership of the Indian Christian
Church sought to convince its own members that everyone was equal in
Jesus Christ., that we are all part of the body of Christ, despite
the existence of gross discrimination against Dalits inside the
Church itself. What DAlit theology began to do is to force the Church
to recognize the discrimination and oppression of the Dalit
Christians.
Q.
What about the role of the Dalit experience in developing Dalit
theology?
A.
Yes, that has been central, too. A.P.Nirmal uses term pain-pathos to
describe this, as he sees this as the basis of constructing DAlit
theology. And this argument about God being preferentially
intertwined with the lives, experiences and struggles of the Dalits
was seen as the source of Dalit theology. So the message that was put
out very forcefully was that genuine Indian Christian theology was
not simply about celebration and joy, but was also rooted in the
suffering of the Dalits.
Q.
Does the question of Dalit pride, in terms of a positive affirmation
of Dalit identity, play a central role in Dalit theology?
A. It
certainly does. Dalit theology affirms the identity of Dalits before
God as people among whom God is working for struggling against
oppression. Here the role of affirming pride in terms of who they see
themselves in God's eyes is central. This gives them ammunition to
place their identity with pride before the wider human community.
Q. Has
Dalit Christian theology managed to emerge as a mass movement or is
it still restricted largely to the four walls of the seminaries?
A: It
is difficult to answer that question in explicit terms. Today, many
Dalit communities are beginning to feel empowered by claiming their
Dalit-ness and using that as a means of protesting against iniquitous
Church structures as well as a means for expressing their identities
and their special relationship with God. On the other hand, many
Dalit Christians themselves have not responded positively to the
emergence of Dalit theology. They say, "We embraced Christianity to
escape our Dalit identity, so why are you trying to impose it on us
again?" They say that we are now Christians and so have nothing to
do with the Dalits. In other words, you have both sorts of reactions
to Dalit theology from Dalit Christians. And then there are some
Dalit Christians who say that much of this theologicaI business is of
no relevance for the common masses. They say, "You sit around in
seminaries and get free trips abroad for conferences to talk about
Dalit theology, but we really do not get to share in all that".
Now this sort of reaction is a protest against the ways in which
Dalit theology is being done, but it is also a knowledgeable protest.
It comes from Dalit Christians who identify themselves as Dalits in
order to make this critique.
Q:
Are the reflections that are emerging from Dalit Christian
formulations being preached to Christian congregations from the
pulpits of the churches?
A:
I should hope that this is being done, but, frankly, very little
follow-up work has been done there. One of the main reasons is the
apathy of influential Church leaders, most of whom are of so-called
'upper' caste background. I see the role of Dalit Christian theology
as challenging the structures of the status quo, both within as well
as outside the Church, which are primarily casteist. That is its
prophetic function based on what we believe the Church should be.
This is the task of unveiling the structures of power that are
putting on a mask of neutrality to hide the operation of caste within
the Church but are still using the power of caste in ways that are
unjust. Dalit theology has another important role - that of
empowering Dalit communities to reclaim their positionality in a way
that could lead them to bring out their own experiences and express
them in their own symbolic modes. This would add strength to their
struggle for empowerment and for a more equal distribution of power
and resources. And this is actually happening today, through a
networking of many resistive forces, of which Dalit Christian
theology is one. This is part of the general awakening of the broader
Dalit community.
Q:
Why has so little been written on liberation theology by
non Christian Dalits so for?
A.
That I cannot say, but perhaps that is due to the fact that there are
actually relatively very few Dalit writers, although their number
today is certainly more than a decade ago. Further, a question that
must be asked here is whether' the modality of writing in and of
itself has historically been more geared to certain castes than to
others. Denied access to writing and education for centuries, the
Dalits have expressed themselves, their pains and their struggles,
primarily through oral traditions, folk tales, songs, etc..
Q:
Do you think non Dalits can write Dalit theology?
A:
I myself am not a Dalit, so in terms of what it means to reflect on
Dalit 'pain pathos' I cannot really write Dalit theology
myself. However, what 1, as a non Dalit, can do is to
interrogate the writings of Dalit theologians and lift up offerings
from the Dalit communities that could form important ingredients of a
Dalit liberationist perspective. In other words, at the very most 1,
as a non Dalit, can simply be a facilitator of the process of
developing Dalit theology. So, I would not call myself a Dalit
theologian, but simply a theologian who writes about Dalits and
Christianity. What I want to stress here is that the Dalit Christians
must be careful not to be co opted by caste Christians. They
must not let caste Christians appoint themselves as their spokesmen
to tell the world what Dalit theology is all about.
Q:
What impact has the development of Dalit Christian theology
had on the thinking of non Christian Dalits?
A:
Not much, I guess. I'm associated with a forum called Scholars for
Social Justice, which includes many nonChristian Dalit academics.
They do not know much about Dalit Christian theology, although they
are aware that there is this fervour in the Christian community
because the Christians have started putting a lot of money into arranging
Dalit conferences.
Q:
What role does Ambedkar play in Dalit Christian theology?
A:
What we share with Ambedkar, and what needs to be resurrected today,
is the potency, value and 'usefulness of religion as a symbolic
framework. This comes out very strongly in Ambedkar. Ambedkar
believed that true liberation for the Dalits was not possible without
religious change, or, in other words, a reinterpretation of who the
Dalits were. So, in this link between religion and social
emancipation, Dalit Christian theology and Ambedkarism share much in
common. Where the two might differ is on the question of the
world view of the Dalits themselves, something that Ambedkar
does not really explore. It almost seems that he believed that it was
completely overwhelmed by the dominant Hindu ethos. But what recent
anthropological studies have done is to look a the "good sense"
preserved in the world views of Dalit communities that are not
just fragment of Brahminical schema. This suggests the possibility of
retrieving liberative elements from the world views of the
Dalits themselves while constructing a Dalit liberation theology.
This
"good sense" to be found in Dalit world views is to be
distinguished from what Gramsci calls "common sense"
something that is placed hegemonically on the dominated. I do this in
my discussion of the role of the drum in Dalit religion in my book on
Dalit theology. There I show that according to some the drum is
simply a Brahminical design or device to force the Dalit drummers to
reiterate their low status, because with the drum they had to deal
with the skin of dead animals, which was considered a source of
"pollution". But you can twist that around and consider the
subjectivity of the Dalit drummers themselves. In a context where
they were completely denied access to the written word, where all
communication was centred round the temple which they could not
enter, here
Q:
How does Dalit Christian theology see the question of religious
conversion?
A:
I think here we share a lot in common with Ambedkar. Conversion of
Dalits to religions like Sikhism, Buddhism, Islam or Christianity has
been, above all, a protest against Hinduism and its caste structures.
So, it's more of a social issue than an individual quest for
spiritual truth. Gandhi saw conversion of Dalits to non Hindu
religions as simply a result of Dalit "vulnerability" and
"gullibility". Ambedkar, however, strongly refuted Gandhi,
saying that in converting to another religion, the Dalits have
consistently, consciously and collectively made a decision based on
what they have been denied by Hinduism and what they are going to get
by joining another community. His point was that religion and
religious conversion are social phenomena, and that not
everybody needs to jump for joy in his hearts in order to be
convinced of something. In his heart Ambedkar, religion has always
been a social phenomenon, and he says that the Dalits will use
whatever it takes, including change of religion, to be converted into
what it means for the Dalits to be most human. The highly
individualistic way of looking at religious conversion is really a
Brahminic way of perceiving things, which is very different from how
Dalits have seen it as a means of social liberation. As Ambedkar
did, we need to counter the whole idea that the Dalits are passive,
dumb and easily misled into conversion. That really disrespects their
humanity. We need to see how conversion has been used by them as a
powerful means of critiquing and challenging the structures of
"upper" caste domination. But at the same time, we need to
be aware of the fact that even after their conversion, the Dalits
have continued to suffer discrimination. In the case of Dalit
Q:
Many Dalit communities have sought to shed their Dalit ness by
claiming a higher caste status for themselves and adopting the
practices and beliefs associated with Brahminic Hinduism. What do you
feel are the potentials and limitations of this form of the quest
for upward social mobility?
A:
This process, called Sanskritisation by sociologists, has never
succeeded in taking the Dalits forward, and so, to my mind, it should
be unveiled and countered. It only further divides the Dalits and
strengthens the caste system and Brahminism. Frankly, today this
strategy will not work because there are no incentives for that,
because in politics and in the economic sphere the Dalits are now
finding that it in fact pays to assert, rather than deny, their Dalit
identity. So, as I see it, the trend is towards assertion of Dalit
pride, and reclaiming and galvanising their identities. That was the
path taken by Ambedkar, and I really feel that that is the way
forward.
Q:
But what dangers do you see to the Dalit movement from the process of
Sonskritisation?
A:
Primarily, Sanskritisation threatens to co opt the Dalits into a
hegemonic Brahminic system, where they will still be at the bottom of
the heap. You will find that there is almost no debate in Hindu
circles at all on what caste or varnashrama dharma ought to mean. And
here, too, is the immense danger that the Dalit liberation project
faces from Hindutva. The Hindutva agenda is concerned, above all, to
weave together the whole country into an ordered organism with
Brahminic Hinduism at its heart, disciplining anyone who dares to
dissent. This disciplining will be primarily directed against social
groups such as Dalits, tribals, Christians, Muslims and others who
are pushing for the recognition of their own ontological, differences
in order to improve their social and economic positions.
Rev.
Dr. A. Suresh is the Executive Secretary of the Commission for
Ecumenism and Dialogue of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India
[CBCI].
Q:
How do you at the CBCl look at the issue of inter religious
dialogue?
A:
The main aim of our inter religious dialogue work is to bring
about harmony between people of different faiths in India. This is of
vital importance, because being a land of many different faiths,
conflicts between people of different religions often occur here. We
want to create better understanding among the people so that
religions should not become a cause for misunderstandings or
conflict. Rather, religions should promote harmony and cooperation
because true religion stands for justice and truth. We want that
people should properly understand the spirit of their own religions
and then use those spiritual resources for their own spiritual growth
as well as for the betterment of the entire society. If that happens
how can there be room for conflict between people of different faiths
and persuasions? That is the basic aim of our work. Religion should
be understood in its spirit. It is much more than mere rituals. It is
not enough to know your own religion. You cannot exist in isolation.
There is a pressing need to understand others, too, to co
operate with people of other faiths for establishing a better
society. And for this, one's own spiritual resources are particularly
valuable. If my religion teaches me to help those in need, whatever
their religion may be, then I should render it, and in this way
religion becomes a force for social progress.
Furthermore,
there is another level of dialogue which is of particular importance.
That is the level of spirituality beyond the level of external
differences of ritual. At this level people can come together under
one Godhead and can freely share the spiritual resources of other
faiths. I For instance, a devout Christian might find yoga an ideal
means to practise his own spirituality. We sometimes organise
programmes on the dialogue of spirituality.
Q:
How do you tackle the question of fundamental differences in beliefs
of different faiths?
A:
I believe that in the inter religious process it is important
that each one should first understand his or her religion properly
but, at the same time, be open to other religions and learn to
respect the choice of others to hold beliefs that differ from their
own. That means learning to love the other despite the differences.
And in dialoguing with others we can learn about our own
shortcomings. There may be things that we can learn from others, so
in this way dialogue is a means for our own spiritual growth as well.
Q:
What sort of activities is your organisation engaged in?
A:
At the All India level we co ordinate programmes in
different parts of the country. We have twelve ecclesiastical
regions, and in each region we invite people interested in promoting
inter religious harmony to get together and explore certain
themes, such as what spiritual resources their own religions can
provide in promoting harmony or social justice and so on. We are also
trying to work out an All India network of individuals and
organisations active in similar work, so as to help promote
collaboration between them. We have brought out several publications
on various issues related to inter religious dialogue in the
Indian context and also have a regular newsletter, called Fellowship.
Q:
Scholars who have written on inter religious dialogue identify
several levels at which dialogue can proceed. Could you elaborate on
this?
A:
Broadly, inter religious dialogue work can be done on four
levels. The first is what is called the 'dialogue of life'. This is
at the level of people living of different faiths living in the some
locality or working in the same factory or office. As a result, a
natural process of interaction takes place among them. They may pay
visits to each other's homes for functions or festivals or in times
of need. That is how they might learn the importance of each other's
religious beliefs and practices. In this way, through ordinary life
situations, religious harmony may grow spontaneously.
The
second level of inter religious dialogue is what is called the
'dialogue of action'. The understanding here is that it is not enough
for people of different faiths simply to peacefully co exist.
Rather, they must come together to work for helping the poor and the
needy, to bring about social change. Thus, if somebody is poor and
hungry, people of different faiths, each being impelled forward by
the inspiration that he or she gains from his or her own religion,
come together to jointly help. Suppose there is a village where the
people are suffering from acute hunger. A Muslim may want to help
these people in distress, because he knows that his religion tells
him that if he eats while his neighbours starve he commits a grave
sin. Likewise, a Christian may also want to help them, because his
religion tells him that if he cannot love his neighbour whom he can
see, how can he love his God whom he cannot see?. So, the Muslim and
the Christian, each inspired by the teachings of his own religion,
come together to help these villagers, by starting, say, a drought
relief programme. This is dialogue at the level of social action.
The
third form is dialogue at the intellectual level. Here, people of
different religions come together to discuss about the beliefs of
their own religious traditions and seek to understand the doctrines
of others.
The
fourth level is the 'dialogue of spirituality'. The spiritual paths
and exercises that one follows in order to commune with the Divine
may, at this level, be freely adopted by people of different faiths.
Thus, for instance, a Christian may find the Buddhist monastic system
or yoga as particularly suited to his own spiritual quest, or a Hindu
might find Christian contemplation and social service as conducive to
his, and so in this way there can be a free borrowing of the
spiritual methods of others at this level.
Dr.
Rai Mohan Pal, noted human rights activist, used to teach English at
Delhi University. He has edited the Bulletin of the People's Union
for Civil Liberties and is now the editor of the Radical Humanist.
Q:
You have been quite active in the struggle against Brahminism. How
do, you see the link between the movement against Brahminism and the
wider human rights movement in India?
A:
I believe that Brahminism and fascism share much in common, and just
as the philosophy of fascism is based on the negation of human
rights, so, too, is the philosophy of Brahminism. In fact, Brahminism
is a philosophy based on the gross violation of the fundamental
rights of entire social groups- women, Shudras, Dalits and tribals,
as well as groups such as Muslims, Christians, Buddhists and Sikhs,
who, when added up, form the vast majority of the Indian population.
The violation of the rights of so many millions because of the caste
system upon which the Brahminical religion is based, is as important
a concern for us as the violation of rights by individuals or the
state. Unfortunately, not many groups in India today, even within the
human rights movement, are giving due importance to this societal
violation of human rights.
Fascism
is a major source of human rights' violations the world over. It has
its own philosophy which takes different forms and adopts different
methods in different contexts, but the philosophy remains the same.
M.N.Roy, the founder of the Radical Humanist movement, was the first
to point out the fact that the roots of fascism lie in the ancient
Brahminical religion, and he showed how European, particularly
German, fascist philosophers borrowed concepts from Brahminical
scholars and scriptures, concepts such as the Aryan race theory, the
supremacy of the strong over the weak, the concept of the tyrannical
superman and so on. In fact, M.N.Roy issued a sharp warning to
Indians not to fall prey to Hindu revivalism because he saw that it
was nothing but fascism in a different garb. You can see that for
yourself. What was the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the mass
slaughter of the Muslims but naked fascism? Goebels, Hitler's chief
propagandist, wrote in one of his books, 'The state must have the
power to break its own laws'. That is precisely what happened on 6
December, 1992. The state was actively involved in the breaking of
the mosque. Goebels also remarks, 'Repeat a lie a hundred times and
it becomes a truth'. You can see this Chanakyan tactic in all the
false Hindutva propaganda about Muslims, Christians and Communists.
See what horrendous and baseless things they are writing about
Muslims in the school textbooks now. They have attributed all the
ills of India to the Muslims, painting all of them as immoral.
The
social basis of Brahminism has historically always been the caste or
varna system, and so it remains till this very day. And what is the
ideology of varna but a reflection of fascism? The Nazis divided
humanity into five categories: the so called 'pure' Aryans, such
as blonde, blue eyed Germans; other Europeans; the Slavs; the
Asiatic peoples; and, lastly, the Africans, whom they hardly
considered human beings at all. Likewise, in the varna system, which
is described and prescribed in all the texts of the Brahminical
religion, starting from the Rig Veda, humankind is divided into five
groups or varnas, which are placed in a steeply hierarchical order
the Brahmins; the Kshatriyas; the Vaishyas; the Shudras; and others
like the so called 'untouchables' and other non Hindus,
derisively called Mlecchas, who are described as 'unclean', because
they refuse to recognise Brahminical hegemony, and so are considered
almost beyond the pale of humanity. You can see from this why so many
top RSS leaders so highly extolled Hitler.
Q:
What is the link between Brahminical fascism and nationalism?
A:
M.N.Roy had studied this matter in great detail and dealt with it in
many of his writings. Unfortunately, as events have unfolded over
time, there appears to be a very thin dividing line between fascism,
Brahminism and nationalism in India today. We need to reject this
stra ig ht jacketed nationalism, this enforced homogeneity, and
instead allow for the expression of pluralism, tolerance and
secularism. India has always been a very plural society, but frankly,
given the horrors of the caste system and the way women here have
been treated, who can say that India has been a tolerant society,
despite all that Hindutva propagandists claim to the contrary? You
just have to see how the Dalits were and still are treated in the
most unimaginably cruel way, how women were forced to jump into the
funeral pyres of their husbands, and how Buddhism was driven out of
the land of its birth by Brahminical revivalism, to realise the
hollowness of the claim that India has been the very epitome of
tolerance. And this ugly intolerance is not just a thing of the past.
I believe that the mass killings of the Sikhs in 1984 was basically
due to the fact that the Sikhs had started refusing to be considered
as Hindus, stressing that they were a separate community. This could
not be tolerated by the advocates of Brahminical supremacy, who felt
that the Sikhs should be taught a 'lesson' to bring them 'in line'.
What is this if not naked fascism?
Q:
Could you elaborate further on your point regarding the relation
between nationalism and fascism?
A:
As I see it, nationalism is as divisive an ideology as communalism or
fascism. It is based on hatred of the 'other', so that today the test
of being a 'true' Indian has become the intensity of one's hatred for
Pakistan or China or whatever. In a country like India, nationalism
becomesa dangerous cult. India, to reiterate a point I made earlier,
has no option but to be secular and pluralist and tolerant. This
means that we must be guided by a philosophy of humanism. We just
cannot attempt to be a nation state in the sense of nineteenth
century political science theory. We have to recognise that although
we have been a highly pluralist society, we have never been
tolerant, so the task before us is to retain our pluralism and seek
to develop a climate of tolerance. Now both of these tolerance
and pluralism are directly threatened by nationalism as it is
articulated and especially by the ideology of Hindutva. The advocates
of Hindutva talk about protecting pluralism, but that is not a
pluralism based on equality. Their brand of pluralism demands that
Dalits and Muslims and other marginalised and oppressed groups must
remain under the Brahminical umbrella as wholly subordinate. This is
sheer intolerance.
Q:
How do you think the struggle against Brahminism can be carried
forward?
A:
Unfortunately, we who are struggling for a tolerant and secular
society do not seem very clear about our own philosophical
and ideological postulates. Hindutva fascism has
to be fought at the ideological level, by a superior ideology
based on rationalism, and not just on the political plane.
A political party challenging the forces of Hindutvacan
very soon be accommodated by Brahminism, as we learn
from the events of recent history. There is no other way
out but a philosophical and cultural revolution. Unfortunately,
we have never had a total philosophical revolution
in this country. Buddhism tried to do this 2500 years
ago, but then it was driven out by the Brahminical revivalism
led by Shankaracharya, who himself used Buddhist
tools and concepts for this purpose. Reformers like
Kabir and Nanak tried to do it by challenging Brahminism,
but soon their followers converted themselves into cultic or
caste like groups or separate communities. Kabir and Nanak were
converted into cult figures and their radical message of social
revolution was forgotten. Instead of revolutionising the entire
society, the Kabirpanthis and the Nanakpanthis emerged as new
communities, thus adding to the already bewildering number of
castes. I am of the firm opinion that unless we have a philosophical
revolution in India today, real and meaningful social change is
totally impossible.
